Palmers Green Cycling Tracks Debate

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5 January, 2015 - 20:30
#1
londoncycling
Palmers Green Cycling Tracks Debate

You may have heard of mini Holland scheme in Enfield that is supposed to begin enabling cycling by creating segregated tracks along some main roads. 

I'm involved in an online discussion regarding the implementation along Palmers Green shopping centre. The discussion is exploring various options for Palmers Green, but there is a lot of disagreement: worries that the segregated bicycle tracks and floating bus stops are intimitading to  pedestrians, particularly partially sighted or blind pedestrians. There is also some talk of shared space. 

As none of us are experts on designing cycling facilities, these discussions are leading to nowhere and are essentially personal prejudices. I would like some examples well implemented cycle facilities in similar shopping centres that will alleviate the fears of those involved in the discussions. Perhaps someone could also look at the current road layout and judge whether retaining the amount of existing parking is feasible.

Thank you in advance. 

Submitted by londoncycling on 5 January, 2015 - 20:30
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6 January, 2015 - 16:35
mjray

Segregated bicycle tracks and floating bus stops have been used for many years. Why are they suddenly being challenged? Are you sure it's not some bike-bashers deliberately trying to muddy the waters?

I can remember some partially-sighted people calling for all tracks to be segregated (when it was proposed to desegregate some sections where dividing lines were considered visually intrustive) because the lines both demarcated where cycles should be and acted as orientation/navigation aids; and for floating bus stops so they could cross the cycle traffic cautiously on arrival at the stop, without the pressure of trying to identify and board a waiting bus before it left (or feeling that they were making it wait when it might not even be the right bus but they were too far away to read its route sign).

Submitted by mjray on 6 January, 2015 - 16:35
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6 January, 2015 - 16:39
mjray

On another aspect of this, a flippant comment: pedestrians don't seem to be intimidated by segregated footways and cycleways in Norfolk - people walk all over the cycleways without a care! (In a couple of places, the footway has been placed between carriageway and cycleway, which is just bizarre, so I don't blame them.)

Submitted by mjray on 6 January, 2015 - 16:39
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6 January, 2015 - 17:10
londoncycling

I don't think the are anti cycling - in fact some claim to already cycle - but they seem to be overly sensitive to the option of implementing cycle tracks due to some perceived affect on pedestrians. I don't see their problem and I think any alternative would be disasterous. This is why I need some examples of where it does work to allay those fears.  

Thanks for your help. 

 

Submitted by londoncycling on 6 January, 2015 - 17:10
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6 January, 2015 - 22:01
(Reply to #4)
mjray

Sorry. None of these are great examples, but there are segregated cycleways and footways in Norwich on the northern end of King Street, on the bridge between King Street and Riverside, on the western end of the Avenues, possibly on University Drive; in Weston-super-Mare, alongside Somerset Avenue, alongside Summerlands, most of NCN33 north/east from the Hospital until it reaches Maltlands; in London, the Seven Stations Link is foot/cycle segregated east of Byng Place for a bit, there's segregation alongside Consitution Hill and along the east and south edges of Hyde Park and there are probably many more. As far as I know, pedestrians are intimidated by motorised traffic on the nearby carriageways and not the cycleways.

I'm not as good on floating bus stops - I don't remember any except the famous examples from places like Cambridge which I'm sure you can find anyway. There are newer examples such as Bristol Baldwin Street which have both foot/cycle segregation and floating bus stops, but they can be dismissed as unproven. NCN4 through Bristol Castle Park is segregated and has been for some time, although there's been some tension/conflict.

Maybe some of those will help. I'm not aware of attitude surveys being done on any of these, though, so I guess they're all open to accusations of being intimidating but unmeasured.

Submitted by mjray on 6 January, 2015 - 22:01
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6 January, 2015 - 22:52
(Reply to #5)
londoncycling

No need to apologise. Thank you very much for this. 

Do you know of any shopping streets that have good quality infrastructure? The Netherlands must have loads.

Submitted by londoncycling on 6 January, 2015 - 22:52
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6 January, 2015 - 23:38
(Reply to #6)
mjray

Most of Cambridge city centre is open to cycles even when it is not open to cars. Where it's one-way, cycles are often allowed two-way. I think most of Bristol Broadmead is now open to cycles too.

Sadly, Norfolk still tends to ban bikes from its car-free shopping streets (not that that stops the most reckless ones) and North Somerset tends to allow cars in them.

Submitted by mjray on 6 January, 2015 - 23:38
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6 January, 2015 - 22:26
George_

There's a great tumbler showing many existing examples of floating bus stops in London - here is a typical example http://floating-bus-stops.tumblr.com/image/104170448899 this has a full width carriageway on each side but are generally accepted and used. I agree that having a floating bus stop between two high speed (30mph+) carriageways would be intimidating, but a low speed and a high speed combination is very common all over the country. 

 

Shared space around bus stops is a bad idea, it'd be highly inconvenient for pedestrians and cyclists, achieving little. Traffic to share the same space should be moving in the same direction. 

Submitted by George_ on 6 January, 2015 - 22:26
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6 January, 2015 - 22:29
George_

There's a great tumbler showing many existing examples of floating bus stops in London - here is a typical example http://floating-bus-stops.tumblr.com/image/104170448899 this has a full width carriageway on each side but are generally accepted and used. I agree that having a floating bus stop between two high speed (30mph+) carriageways would be intimidating, but a low speed and a high speed combination is very common all over the country. 

 

Shared space around bus stops is a bad idea, it'd be highly inconvenient for pedestrians and cyclists, achieving little. Traffic to share the same space should be moving in the same direction. 

Submitted by George_ on 6 January, 2015 - 22:29
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6 January, 2015 - 22:45
(Reply to #9)
londoncycling

Interesting link. Many of these are actually in Enfield so I know some aren't cycling specific. However there are many that are and it will definitely help. I especially like the train bypass which had quite a lot of passengers! 

Submitted by londoncycling on 6 January, 2015 - 22:45
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6 January, 2015 - 23:15
(Reply to #10)
George_

Something odd is happening as I can't see my own post but I'm glad you can! 

Yes, most are not cycling specific but in some ways they're much better examples -  familiar to everyone and not complained about. Besides, if bus passengers can exist on a floating bus stop with motorised vehicles running on each side, then how can you oppose a properly constructed cycle way going by? 

'As easy as riding a bike' blog did a piece recently on the blind and shared spaces, by the way. Bottom line was blind pedestrians benefit from cycling segregation, which you'd have thought was obvious but there you go :-) 

 

Submitted by George_ on 6 January, 2015 - 23:15
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10 January, 2015 - 11:34
(Reply to #11)
londoncycling

I actually can't see your post either, but I can read it in my emails. 

This link is to the website that we are having this discussion. The discussion is hidden but you can find the arguments of some detractors:

 

http://www.palmersgreencommunity.org.uk/pgc/forum/miscellaneous/248-cycle-enfield-stakeholders-to-consider-alternative-to-green-lanes-cycle-route#771

Submitted by londoncycling on 10 January, 2015 - 11:34
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10 January, 2015 - 11:35
(Reply to #12)
londoncycling

I actually can't see your post either, but I can read it in my emails. 

This link is to the website that we are having this discussion. The discussion is hidden but you can see the arguments of some anti cycle detractors:

 

http://www.palmersgreencommunity.org.uk/pgc/forum/miscellaneous/248-cycle-enfield-stakeholders-to-consider-alternative-to-green-lanes-cycle-route#771

Submitted by londoncycling on 10 January, 2015 - 11:35
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