Bus-stop bypasses/Floating bus stops

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SRD
SRD's picture
Bus-stop bypasses/Floating bus stops

Apologies if this is much discussed elsewhere, but I need some fairly urgent support.

Edinburgh is slowly bringing in some infrastructure that will necessitate bus-stop bypasses.  Some members of the local group of Living Streets Edinburgh, are very opposed to these.  I have tried to influence these discussions as best I can, but there is still some hostility and suggestions that we need to 'wait and see' how they work in London and elsewhere.  

It would help me a lot if I could be directed to info regarding - cities/countries with longstanding bus stop bypasses; cities/countries which have implemented them recently (New York?), and what you all regard as best practice design guidance so as to co-exist with vulnerable pedestrian groups. 

thanks 

 

SRD

 

peoplesfrontofr...

it seems like the objections to these tend to be based on concerns about pedestrian safety. I imagine there's a fair bit of video showing them operating in London and Brighton without any particular danger to pedestrians, as long as they're designed well.

It's probably also worth looking at how junctions like the one outside MI5 at Vauxhall operate. At peak times this is used by lots of cyclists and lots of pedestrians, and the conflict seems to be mostly around peope deciding who's going to give way. And I mean in a reasonably good natured fashion: perhaps because no-one is moving at very high speeds, everyone accomodates the others. 

Sally Watson has commented a bit on twitter

landscape_urbanism

They are a standard feature of the designs and I will be pleased to take some video when they are in operation. It is difficult to see that there are going to be any problems with them.

Clive Durdle

Except:

Access and egress for wheelchair users, blind and partially sighted people, parents with buggies

Large groups at the bus stop, for example in school starting and leaving times

Bus stops in busy shopping centres and near transport interchanges.

.....

Clive Durdle

.

Clive Durdle

Except:

Access and egress for wheelchair users, blind and partially sighted people, parents with buggies

Large groups at the bus stop, for example in school starting and leaving times

Bus stops in busy shopping centres and near transport interchanges.

.....

Clive Durdle

Except:

Access and egress for wheelchair users, blind and partially sighted people, parents with buggies

Large groups at the bus stop, for example in school starting and leaving times

Bus stops in busy shopping centres and near transport interchanges.

.....

Clive Durdle

Are they designed to allow a mobility scooter using the cycle route to enter a bus?

SRD
SRD's picture

So, my original post (which got eaten except for the title), said something like: 

a particular issue, which I should have flagged in my original post, it that these very first exemplars are going to be on Leith walk, which has a high footfall and very high bus use. Also quite a high proportion of users with mobility issues, frailties etc.  More Brixton than City of London. AND, it is a long hill, albeit a very gradual slope. 

SRD
SRD's picture

" without any particular danger to pedestrians"

 

my my sense is that the issue is subjective safety - for the pedestrians. 

 

 

SRD
SRD's picture

" without any particular danger to pedestrians"

 

my my sense is that the issue is subjective safety - for the pedestrians. 

 

 

SRD
SRD's picture

Thanks for the shoutout on Twitter btw. 

Clive Durdle

And does the bus have enough space to properly stop adjacent to the kerb at the bus stop and for its ramp to deploy properly?

What turning circles does a mobility scooter or wheelchair user have to negotiate?

Are there toppling hazards near like kerbs?

 

What is that phrase?  The devil is in the detail!

 

Clive Durdle

Is the issue actually that floating bus stops in some situations are too complex, with too many variables?

So designs need to think carefully about all the possible interactions, and that actually removing space for cars and their abilities to queue and park or be separated or use a route are the first questions to ask?

 

SRD
SRD's picture

not sure quite what you're getting at here. Definitely issue of making sure the island is big enough, which may require space. 

Clive Durdle

Been puzzling what you meant!  I use a gestalt perspective - foreground and background.  The problem is never the bus stop, but its context!  Bus stops are interchanges.  Car parking is also an interchange between driving and walking or using a wheelchair - find out about the issues of getting out of a car into a wheelchair!

 

Therefore to solve bus stop issues you also need to solve ALL interchange issues!  It is the same problem, bus stops are only one example!

Clive Durdle

Been puzzling what you meant!  I use a gestalt perspective - foreground and background.  The problem is never the bus stop, but its context!  Bus stops are interchanges.  Car parking is also an interchange between driving and walking or using a wheelchair - find out about the issues of getting out of a car into a wheelchair!

 

Therefore to solve bus stop issues you also need to solve ALL interchange issues!  It is the same problem, bus stops are only one example!

SRD
SRD's picture

not sure quite what you're getting at here. Definitely issue of making sure the island is big enough, which may require space. 

Clive Durdle

I was in a meeting recently where the subject of level crossings came up. Level crossings are often adjacent to railway stations. Maybe a similar principle is needed for busy roads, bus stops right next to pedestrian crossings, with asls for buses?

Clive Durdle

What is needed is to treat bus stops properly for what they actually are - interchanges - and design properly for all the interactions that occur at and near them.

Clive Durdle

And actually, parking and dooring should also be treated as interchange issues.  Someone entering or leaving a transport mode and the issues that arise.

Clive Durdle

`

Tulyar

Clive whatever you are pressing keeps sending incomplete and seemingly irrelevant messages. Same with some AndyR and SRD postings.  As for pedestrian crossing next to bus stop NOOO! 

Many instances of fatal and serious knocking downs, as bus driver has multiple demands to check behind for pulling away, to deal with passengers as boarding completed/late boarding attempts, to check inside bus to make sure passengers are not going to fall over as bus pulls away, or and to check ahead to make sure the signals remain green from when they last checked/no pedestrians are stepping out.  Oh and for DOO buses to deal with the bus controller (and iBus display on London Buses) telling the driver they are running behind time and need to catch up with the timetable/bus in front.

Clive Durdle

I have had a reply which is not appearing in the thread!

 

 As for pedestrian crossing next to bus stop

Let's loook at this!

Many instances of fatal and serious knocking downs, as bus driver has multiple demands to

Multiple demands is evidence that there are serious issues to address carefully!

check behind for pulling away,

Law, Highway Code, Licencing

to deal with passengers as boarding completed/late boarding attempts, to check inside bus to make sure passengers are not going to fall over as bus pulls away

This is why railway stations have staff on the platform and on the train!  Drivers should drive when receive signal OK to proceed.  Similar processes on aircraft.

, or and to check ahead to make sure the signals remain green from when they last checked/no pedestrians are stepping out

Highway code Law

Oh and for DOO buses to deal with the bus controller (and iBus display on London Buses) telling the driver they are running behind time and need to catch up with the timetable/bus in front.

 

Sounds similar to using mobile phone while driving - illegal.

Clive Durdle

I have had a reply which is not appearing in the thread!

 

 As for pedestrian crossing next to bus stop

Let's loook at this!

Many instances of fatal and serious knocking downs, as bus driver has multiple demands to

Multiple demands is evidence that there are serious issues to address carefully!

check behind for pulling away,

Law, Highway Code, Licencing

to deal with passengers as boarding completed/late boarding attempts, to check inside bus to make sure passengers are not going to fall over as bus pulls away

This is why railway stations have staff on the platform and on the train!  Drivers should drive when receive signal OK to proceed.  Similar processes on aircraft.

, or and to check ahead to make sure the signals remain green from when they last checked/no pedestrians are stepping out

Highway code Law

Oh and for DOO buses to deal with the bus controller (and iBus display on London Buses) telling the driver they are running behind time and need to catch up with the timetable/bus in front.

 

Sounds similar to using mobile phone while driving - illegal.

service1301

Hello SRD

You may already be quite familiar with these two articles, but if not then I believe they could be of use:

https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2013/09/05/riding-around-the-bus-stop/

http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/2013/08/ten-bus-stop-bypasses-for-b...

It is worth noting that according to Mark Wagenbuur bus stop bypasses have been in use since at least 1953 in the Netherlands. If that's not tried and tested, what is?!

I wonder if part of the reason for opposition from Living Streets is due to the fact that they do not have a clear idea of the difference between a true floating bus stop, and a situation where passengers step directly onto the cycle path. I believe the latter situation can be found in Denmark but not the Netherlands. Clearly these are two quite different situations, with the former being far preferable. 

From when I lived in Berlin, I remember that where there were cycle tracks provided (sometimes there were lanes or nothing) there were also bus stops, and this was not a massive problem. There was a small gap between the kerb and the start of the cycle track, so kind of like an island. However, the difference between footway and cycle path was often not very well marked, meaning that people could tend to spill across the cycle track, especially when busy, which was a bit of a guddle. The cycle path was also relatively narrow. However, this was still much preferable to the dance of overtaking that one is normally obliged to take part in with buses, and it wasn't a big problem to slow down a bit and carefully ride past the pedestrians. Here is an example which I regularly went past:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.506443,13.3320412,3a,75y,316h,65.79t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sg3JXzbs2duoAVBKHdfWuCQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

It certainly should not be our aspiration to copy inferior designs like this when far better ones exist. However, my point is that even with an inferior design it was far preferable to riding on the main carriageway and did not appear to cause big problems for pedestrians.

SRD
SRD's picture

Thanks for this.  You don't need to convince me that bypasses are better than overtaking, for cyclists.  What I need is evidence that they are better for (or at least safe for) pedestrians.  And even more importantly, that they *feel* safe for pedestrians.  We, of all people, should be sympathetic to that. 

Right or wrong, the local living streets group feels that this is just one more case of the hierarchy of provision not being followed, such that pedestrian safety is being pushed below what they see as 'convenience' for cyclists.  Rest assured I have marshalled arguments against this, but I could use more ammo. 

 

The LSE group, which is well travelled and contains several current or ex-practitioners with excellent reputations for supporting public transport and active travel, is too well aware that Dutch cyclists ride very differently to UK cyclists, so the 'it works in Amsterdam' will only go so far.  Which is why I wondered about other 'new' cycling cities. 

 
service1301

I see what you mean.

A cycle lane with floating bus stops was constructed on Lewes Road in Brighton in 2013. Here is the official information:

http://www.sustrans.org.uk/article/inspiring-infrastructure-continuous-c...

The post-construction report does not mention any problems with bus stops:

http://www.sustrans.org.uk/sites/default/files/images/files/Route-Design...

I have been looking for reports of complaints about the floating bus stops, but have not found any. There are plenty of complaints about other aspects of the scheme, but not the bus stops! For example:

http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/13840641.Sixth_award_for_multi_million_po...

http://www.theargus.co.uk/opinion/blogs/10762256.Lewes_Road_from_a_pedes...

I have found one comment which is not really a complaint:

"At the 'floating bus stops' the cycle lane becomes a cycle track - it was noticed that those getting off the buses tended to cross where they alighted rather than walk to the designated crossing point. This did not appear to pose a problem."

(Source:http://www.alexsullyconsulting.com/new-page/floating-bus-stops)

One would think that if it caused problems for pedestrians then there would have been complaints by now. Local newspapers love that kind of stuff (e.g. Edinburgh Evening News)!

Hope that helps.

service1301

Hello SRD

I had a look at the German equivalent of Living Streets (Fachverband Fussverkehr Deutschland) to see if they had anything interesting to say about bus stops, but unfortunately they didn't! (They did have plenty to say about cycle paths, shared usage etc). 

I also looked at what ADFC say (German equivalent of CTC). I found this document from 1999 (the first link on this page: http://www.adfc.de/verkehr--recht/radverkehr-gestalten/radverkehrsfuehru...). 

Here are a few highlights:

Where cycle tracks are provided, and there is 6.6 metres or more of width available, the cycle path should go to the right of the bus shelter. If there are kiosks or attractive display windows, then another solution should be found (as passengers will go to and fro between the waiting area and the kiosks). The pavement should have a width of at least 2 metres, when volumes of pedestrians are low. The size of the waiting area depends on the number of passengers. The boundary of the waiting area should be clearly recognisable, for example with a railing or low hedge. Passengers should not need to make a long detour in order to get into the waiting area.

If there is between 5 and 6.6 metres of width, the cycle path can go between the bus shelter and the road. This layout minimises conflict between waiting passengers and cyclists, and experience shows that disembarking passengers are also well protected. In this case the design of the bus stop must make it clear to passengers that the embarking and disembarking area is not the waiting area, but rather the cycle path. Tactile paving should separate the waiting area from the cycle path, and the cyclists and waiting passengers must be able to see one another. This layout is a compromise, and should generally not be used if there is less than 5 metres or more than 6.6 metres of width. If there is no bus shelter and passenger volumes are very low, a width of 4 metres may be possible.

 

I'm not sure if this is very relevant or useful for you... If you like I can properly translate the whole thing.

Regards

Stephen

Clive Durdle

From link

 

" so that new conflict is to be preferred over the first since it can only be less serious."

 

But it is not to be preferred!  It is still a near miss or an incident! How does that work for blind and partially sighted people, deaf people (who can't hear a bike bell) wobblies, who a rapid change in movement or direction is highly likely to cause a fall, wheelchair and mobility scooter users getting across kerbs ...

If issues are not even properly considered we will not get anywhere!  The devil is in the detail!

 
service1301

Hello Clive Durdle

The original poster asked for examples of floating bus stops in countries which have a long tradition of using them, and from places where they have been more recently introduced. That's what I'm trying to provide, as best I can.

Did you look at Mark Wagenbuur's video? I think it's a really good video, and if a picture tells a thousand words then a video must tell several thousand! Regarding what he says about conflict, I wonder if potential conflict is a better way of describing what he is talking about. Where the paths of different road users intersect, there exists a potential for conflict. As I understand it, one of the ideas of Sustainable Safety is that roads should be forgiving of mistakes. The consequences of a bike/pedestrian collision will, on average, be less grave than a bus/bike collision. This means that it is more forgiving of mistakes.

I know nothing of what it is like to get around Britain's streets as a blind, deaf or disabled person. However, I would note that blind or deaf people do already cross roads away from signalised crossing points, as it is impossible not to. (For example going through a residential area). Crossing the cycle path after getting off the bus is really an unsignaled crossing of a very narrow one-way road used only by bicycles. 

AndyR

"Crossing the cycle path after getting off the bus is really an unsignaled crossing of a very narrow one-way road used only by bicycles."

With at least two major differences. Firstly, the passenger alighting from the bus will not have sight of the cyclist when they exit, nor will the cyclist have sight of the passenger until they exit the bus. Secondly, passengers alighting from a bus tend to stop and gather themselves (for want of a better phrase) on the footway, checking they have all their bags, children, etc.,  before walking off. That's not something people crossing a live lane of motor traffic tend to do.

service1301

Hello Andy R

I think it's a question of how wide the island is. If the island is narrow (or non-existent) then you are quite right. However, in 9 of the 10 examples shown in David Hembrow's video there is a generous sized island, which gives plenty of space for passengers to gather themselves (I like this phrase!) and time for passengers and cyclists to see each other. 

Linking back to the original poster's point, Leith Walk is a wide road. For about three quarters of its length it is wider than 26.5 metres, and for half of its length it is wider than 28 metres. Therefore there should be enough room to provide a good sized island.

AndyR

Sorry, should have made clear I was referring to the cycle track running between the carriageway and footway/bus stop (e.g. the layout used in Denmark), rather than the bus stop bypass layout.

Clive Durdle

And what is this "no complaints" thing?  Everyone very quickly gets habituated to very poor things, and don't even notice!  This is why very detailed audit is very important.  Newspapers are marginal.

There is in the disability world a phtase "nothing about us without us".

In some ways, specialist groups like living streets and cycling groups are only part of the solution.  Yes hear all the perspectives then work everything out in detail.  

A very significant and critical factor that seems to get ignored is the split responsibilities  - local councils, bus shelter providers, bus stop providers, regional groups like tfl ......

It feels like a very detailed template is required that includes who and how to consult and get bodies woreking together.

service1301

I quite agree that a newspaper is not a good source of information about this, and a detailed audit would be a very good thing. If I had a better source then I would use it! Nonetheless, I do find it genuinely surprising that there are no complaints about the bus stops after they were built, given the copious amounts of criticism of almost every other aspect of the scheme in The Argus!

Regards

Stephen

Clive Durdle

 The Health and Safety Executive (Slips and trips team - HSE 2009) has written about workplaces.  Identical issues occur on streets!:

More: Near-miss reporting

A simple, and potentially anonymous, system for reporting near-miss incidents is a very important way of identifying problem areas. This will help you highlight some of the less obvious hazards in a workplace, or identify areas where a problem is developing.

Some models suggest that for every accident there are approximately ninety near-misses.

If there is a good reporting system in place, the hazard could be dealt with before someone is injured.

It can be difficult to get staff to report near-misses or minor slip accidents, as they are often seen as funny or embarrassing occurrences (until someone is hurt).

It is important to create a culture which encourages reporting of these accidents.

service1301

Hello SRD

How are things going? Is there any way we can be of assistance?

I had a look at the general Living Streets website, and their view on bus-stop bypasses can be found here:

http://www.livingstreets.org.uk/sites/default/files/content/library/cons...

It would seem that they are not inherently opposed to the idea, but strongly feel that pedestrians should have priority in crossing the cycle path. But perhaps local Living Streets groups don't necessarily have to agree with the national view.

It strikes me that this is something that has not been discussed here - whether or not pedestrians should have priority in crossing the cycle path. I have not seen any pictures or videos from the Netherlands where pedestrians do have priority, but perhaps someone with more knowledge than me can comment on this. I have never come across or read about this in Germany either. 

Although it might not normally be done in the Netherlands, I don't see a problem with having a mini zebra crossing across the cycle path. In fact, I think it might be a good idea. It might also encourage bus passengers not to wait in this area. I believe that such crossings will soon no longer require Belisha beacons. The crossing could be placed on a hump, so long as it is not too steep. This might alleviate some of the concerns that Living Streets might have about excessive speeds, as Leith Walk is a long, gentle hill.

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