Bus-stop bypasses/Floating bus stops

it seems like the objections to these tend to be based on concerns about pedestrian safety. I imagine there's a fair bit of video showing them operating in London and Brighton without any particular danger to pedestrians, as long as they're designed well.

It's probably also worth looking at how junctions like the one outside MI5 at Vauxhall operate. At peak times this is used by lots of cyclists and lots of pedestrians, and the conflict seems to be mostly around peope deciding who's going to give way. And I mean in a reasonably good natured fashion: perhaps because no-one is moving at very high speeds, everyone accomodates the others. 

Sally Watson has commented a bit on twitter. 

And does the bus have enough space to properly stop adjacent to the kerb at the bus stop and for its ramp to deploy properly?

What turning circles does a mobility scooter or wheelchair user have to negotiate?

Are there toppling hazards near like kerbs?

What is that phrase?  The devil is in the detail!

I was in a meeting recently where the subject of level crossings came up. Level crossings are often adjacent to railway stations. Maybe a similar principle is needed for busy roads, bus stops right next to pedestrian crossings, with asls for buses?

What is needed is to treat bus stops properly for what they actually are - interchanges - and design properly for all the interactions that occur at and near them.

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Clive whatever you are pressing keeps sending incomplete and seemingly irrelevant messages. Same with some AndyR and SRD postings.  As for pedestrian crossing next to bus stop NOOO! 

Many instances of fatal and serious knocking downs, as bus driver has multiple demands to check behind for pulling away, to deal with passengers as boarding completed/late boarding attempts, to check inside bus to make sure passengers are not going to fall over as bus pulls away, or and to check ahead to make sure the signals remain green from when they last checked/no pedestrians are stepping out.  Oh and for DOO buses to deal with the bus controller (and iBus display on London Buses) telling the driver they are running behind time and need to catch up with the timetable/bus in front.

I have had a reply which is not appearing in the thread!

 As for pedestrian crossing next to bus stop

Let's loook at this!

Many instances of fatal and serious knocking downs, as bus driver has multiple demands to

Multiple demands is evidence that there are serious issues to address carefully!

check behind for pulling away,

Law, Highway Code, Licencing

to deal with passengers as boarding completed/late boarding attempts, to check inside bus to make sure passengers are not going to fall over as bus pulls away

This is why railway stations have staff on the platform and on the train!  Drivers should drive when receive signal OK to proceed.  Similar processes on aircraft.

, or and to check ahead to make sure the signals remain green from when they last checked/no pedestrians are stepping out

Highway code Law

Oh and for DOO buses to deal with the bus controller (and iBus display on London Buses) telling the driver they are running behind time and need to catch up with the timetable/bus in front.

Sounds similar to using mobile phone while driving - illegal.

I have had a reply which is not appearing in the thread!

 As for pedestrian crossing next to bus stop

Let's loook at this!

Many instances of fatal and serious knocking downs, as bus driver has multiple demands to

Multiple demands is evidence that there are serious issues to address carefully!

check behind for pulling away,

Law, Highway Code, Licencing

to deal with passengers as boarding completed/late boarding attempts, to check inside bus to make sure passengers are not going to fall over as bus pulls away

This is why railway stations have staff on the platform and on the train!  Drivers should drive when receive signal OK to proceed.  Similar processes on aircraft.

, or and to check ahead to make sure the signals remain green from when they last checked/no pedestrians are stepping out

Highway code Law

Oh and for DOO buses to deal with the bus controller (and iBus display on London Buses) telling the driver they are running behind time and need to catch up with the timetable/bus in front.

Sounds similar to using mobile phone while driving - illegal.

Hello SRD

You may already be quite familiar with these two articles, but if not then I believe they could be of use:

https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2013/09/05/riding-around-the-bus-stop/

http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/2013/08/ten-bus-stop-bypasses-for-b...

It is worth noting that according to Mark Wagenbuur bus stop bypasses have been in use since at least 1953 in the Netherlands. If that's not tried and tested, what is?!

I wonder if part of the reason for opposition from Living Streets is due to the fact that they do not have a clear idea of the difference between a true floating bus stop, and a situation where passengers step directly onto the cycle path. I believe the latter situation can be found in Denmark but not the Netherlands. Clearly these are two quite different situations, with the former being far preferable. 

From when I lived in Berlin, I remember that where there were cycle tracks provided (sometimes there were lanes or nothing) there were also bus stops, and this was not a massive problem. There was a small gap between the kerb and the start of the cycle track, so kind of like an island. However, the difference between footway and cycle path was often not very well marked, meaning that people could tend to spill across the cycle track, especially when busy, which was a bit of a guddle. The cycle path was also relatively narrow. However, this was still much preferable to the dance of overtaking that one is normally obliged to take part in with buses, and it wasn't a big problem to slow down a bit and carefully ride past the pedestrians. Here is an example which I regularly went past:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.506443,13.3320412,3a,75y,316h,65.79t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sg3JXzbs2duoAVBKHdfWuCQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

It certainly should not be our aspiration to copy inferior designs like this when far better ones exist. However, my point is that even with an inferior design it was far preferable to riding on the main carriageway and did not appear to cause big problems for pedestrians.

From link

" so that new conflict is to be preferred over the first since it can only be less serious."

But it is not to be preferred!  It is still a near miss or an incident! How does that work for blind and partially sighted people, deaf people (who can't hear a bike bell) wobblies, who a rapid change in movement or direction is highly likely to cause a fall, wheelchair and mobility scooter users getting across kerbs ...

If issues are not even properly considered we will not get anywhere!  The devil is in the detail!

And what is this "no complaints" thing?  Everyone very quickly gets habituated to very poor things, and don't even notice!  This is why very detailed audit is very important.  Newspapers are marginal.

There is in the disability world a phtase "nothing about us without us".

In some ways, specialist groups like living streets and cycling groups are only part of the solution.  Yes hear all the perspectives then work everything out in detail.  

A very significant and critical factor that seems to get ignored is the split responsibilities  - local councils, bus shelter providers, bus stop providers, regional groups like tfl ......

It feels like a very detailed template is required that includes who and how to consult and get bodies woreking together.

 The Health and Safety Executive (Slips and trips team - HSE 2009) has written about workplaces.  Identical issues occur on streets!:

More: Near-miss reporting

A simple, and potentially anonymous, system for reporting near-miss incidents is a very important way of identifying problem areas. This will help you highlight some of the less obvious hazards in a workplace, or identify areas where a problem is developing.

Some models suggest that for every accident there are approximately ninety near-misses.

If there is a good reporting system in place, the hazard could be dealt with before someone is injured.

It can be difficult to get staff to report near-misses or minor slip accidents, as they are often seen as funny or embarrassing occurrences (until someone is hurt).

It is important to create a culture which encourages reporting of these accidents.

Hello SRD

How are things going? Is there any way we can be of assistance?

I had a look at the general Living Streets website, and their view on bus-stop bypasses can be found here:

http://www.livingstreets.org.uk/sites/default/files/content/library/cons...

It would seem that they are not inherently opposed to the idea, but strongly feel that pedestrians should have priority in crossing the cycle path. But perhaps local Living Streets groups don't necessarily have to agree with the national view.

It strikes me that this is something that has not been discussed here - whether or not pedestrians should have priority in crossing the cycle path. I have not seen any pictures or videos from the Netherlands where pedestrians do have priority, but perhaps someone with more knowledge than me can comment on this. I have never come across or read about this in Germany either. 

Although it might not normally be done in the Netherlands, I don't see a problem with having a mini zebra crossing across the cycle path. In fact, I think it might be a good idea. It might also encourage bus passengers not to wait in this area. I believe that such crossings will soon no longer require Belisha beacons. The crossing could be placed on a hump, so long as it is not too steep. This might alleviate some of the concerns that Living Streets might have about excessive speeds, as Leith Walk is a long, gentle hill.